DUST Search - Meta lock

Devadander wrote:

Shaun Iwairo wrote:

BARAGAMOS wrote:

^^^^^^
That's how it is supposed to work. A combined number. You can have whatever you want as long as you come in under the number. That gives a lot of personal freedom for fits and limits stomping.

This is the sort of meta lock that I'm really against. Never underestimate Dust players ability to break the game. I've just made a thread that will hopefully highlight my concerns.

I just did an example in that thread.....

At this point it would have to be a tier-lock not a meta-lock.

Militia contracts: MLT suits and weapons only. Mods are crazy hard to fit on MLT frames even with max skills.

Lore it up with something like:

"Concord has allowed your local station to offer simple garrisons in surrounding systems. As these battles take place in high sec space, equipment will be restricted to minimize property damage and civilian casualties.

As the engagements are of a lesser threat level, the isk you will receive will also be lesser. However, the experiences will serve your combat training as well as any other encounter would. See your station contracts officer for more information."

Newberries can get their sp on without being smeared. (too hard)
Vets can grind out their dailys.
Tryhards still have two modes to tryhard in.
(Q sync in this mode will happen, but will lead to less stomps)

Lower isk payout reflects lower cost of fittings.
No sp change because that hurts newbros.

And maybe tune the salvage (if possible) to more components, fitted fits, broken bits, and std gear. As these are the things plants crave.


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Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 19	Posted - 2015.10.02 05:48:00 - [1] - Quote Be careful what you wish for. Meta lock will just encourage the cheesiest FTOM fits with no counters due to being meta locked.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 19	Posted - 2015.10.02 13:07:00 - [2] - Quote Devadander wrote: Seriously? If you think a meta locked mode is a bad idea... some thoughts come to mind.... Eve has high sec for a reason. NEW PLAYER RETENTION. Except there's no PvP in high sec other than ganks and some FW bleed-over.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 20	Posted - 2015.10.04 05:14:00 - [3] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: ^^^^^^ That's how it is supposed to work. A combined number. You can have whatever you want as long as you come in under the number. That gives a lot of personal freedom for fits and limits stomping. This is the sort of meta lock that I'm really against. Never underestimate Dust players ability to break the game. I've just made a thread that will hopefully highlight my concerns.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 23	Posted - 2015.10.04 23:34:00 - [4] - Quote Devadander wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: ^^^^^^ That's how it is supposed to work. A combined number. You can have whatever you want as long as you come in under the number. That gives a lot of personal freedom for fits and limits stomping. This is the sort of meta lock that I'm really against. Never underestimate Dust players ability to break the game. I've just made a thread that will hopefully highlight my concerns. I just did an example in that thread..... At this point it would have to be a tier-lock not a meta-lock. Militia contracts: MLT suits and weapons only. Mods are crazy hard to fit on MLT frames even with max skills. Lore it up with something like: "Concord has allowed your local station to offer simple garrisons in surrounding systems. As these battles take place in high sec space, equipment will be restricted to minimize property damage and civilian casualties. As the engagements are of a lesser threat level, the isk you will receive will also be lesser. However, the experiences will serve your combat training as well as any other encounter would. See your station contracts officer for more information." Newberries can get their sp on without being smeared. (too hard) Vets can grind out their dailys. Tryhards still have two modes to tryhard in. (Q sync in this mode will happen, but will lead to less stomps) Lower isk payout reflects lower cost of fittings. No sp change because that hurts newbros. And maybe tune the salvage (if possible) to more components, fitted fits, broken bits, and std gear. As these are the things plants crave. I agree that this is better, but I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit. Basic level player: Armor Plating I Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I +5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 0 Augmented Ammo 0 +15% damage vs armor Proto level player: Armor Plating 5 Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5 +25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 5 Augmented Ammo 5 +35% damage vs armor Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage? "But that's just the way of New Eden" This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to. I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 23	Posted - 2015.10.05 02:30:00 - [5] - Quote TIGER SHARK1501 wrote: Even with passive perks in play I don't think that's as detrimental to a newberry as a fully loaded Vet with a Proto suit. Like I said the biggest threat is an organized squad, skill, and passive SP perks. Still not nearly as threatening as the way things are. I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem. I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers. Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has: 288 Shield HP 271 Armor HP and does: 24 HP/round damage to Shield 32.8 HP/round damage to Armor Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has: 335.1 Shield HP 314.5 Armor HP and does: 25.2 HP/round damage to shield 39.6 HP/round damage to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 23	Posted - 2015.10.05 06:07:00 - [6] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: And supposedly noobs just need to git gud, right? So basically you've played the game longer, you have knowledge advantage and also a combat advantage and people just need to git gud. Right. Great info, I will be stealing this and requoting you across many threads. Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear. Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and; Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them: 372.5 Shield HP 347.5 Armor HP and they do: 27.3 HP/round to Shield 43.1 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top. Now things get nasty Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them: 407.7 Shield HP 402.5 Armor HP and they do: 30.45 HP/round to Shield 46.8 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top. I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon: For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 25	Posted - 2015.10.06 00:15:00 - [7] - Quote TIGER SHARK1501 wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Meta lock is stupid I made a rattati suit with better stats ( one I'd much rather run than my best proto ) at a 28 mu than a full proto suit that had a mu of 68. Mu can be manipulated and meta locked matches would be twisted and become a joke. Then don't play it. It is however badly needed. When I hear 'Meta Lock' I think of the total meta of the suit + modules. This could be gamed and would put the new players in a worse situation than before. What I think a lot of us are talking about is a 'Tier Lock'. That is, no use of gear above ADV (maybe even STD) level. This is much less open to exploitation and is my preferred system.